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Ernest Hancock

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Helium is less dense than air. Helium has 0.0114 pounds per cubic foot



Hydrogen lifts 68 lbs per 1,000 cubic feet [1], thus ~14.71 cu. ft. per lb



The weight of standard air is 1.2256 Kg/ Cubic Meter.

The weight of hydrogen is 0.0857 Kg/ Cubic Meter. = https://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-volume-from-cuft-to-m3.html =

Conversion base : 1 ft3 = 0.028316846592 m3 Conversion base : 1 m3 = 35.314666721489 ft3



.0857x.028316846592=0.002426754

Sooo I guess

Hydrogen is 0.002426754 per cubic foot (I'd check this. that's a lot lighter than Helium.



Hydrogen would be an interesting choice since the solar panels can crack water into Hydrogen that can be stored for rocket fuel, along with the Oxygen, and for the bags.



Maybe not "with" the oxygen :)



If you do some of this calculations with as much space as you can use for bags then we'll know what thrust/lift we need and how much weight in material we will get to use



Such as:

23,256,222 cu.ft of the trimmed down ship may need 2/3rds of the space for cargo and people space etc.

So say 8,000,000 Cu.ft. that's

645600 lbs. of air that will be replaced with

19414 lbs of Hydrogen or

91200 lbs of Helium



So that means that we get to use 626186 lbs of structure to make the craft float without any lift or thrust..... interesting.



This is "Napkin Math" and I'd check it. But it gives you an idea. It also explains why you need to have as much air displacement as possible and still keep a lifting shape. But coolness is a factor as well. I like your work.



When you get further along and are able to place where the bags will go then we can start working on the gas vs. open spaces and what thrust we need for Vertical takeoff. Then the aerodynamics of the wing for its lift at what seeds... blah blah blah.



Your work on the displacement just got us a lot further along. Thank you!



After you have time to play with this then we can do some math.



If you ever check these numbers and are comfortable putting together some illustrations with these facts, let me know and we'll put something together for the forum OR you can just start posting these calcs up now and get more people helping with such stuff.



Peace,

Ernie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


Ernest Hancock

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This suggests that the calcs I did comparing Helium to Hydrogen were wrong, I hope you get the idea.



The Relative Lifting Ability of Hydrogen and Helium



Although helium weighs twice as much hydrogen, because each gas is so much lighter than air helium provides about 93% of hydrogen’s lift at full purity. In practical operation it is impossible to achieve or maintain 100% purity of either gas, reducing helium’s lifting ability to about 88% of the lift of hydrogen.



The actual lifting ability of each gas varies with temperature, pressure, and humidity, and to take account of varying atmospheric conditions and gas impurities airship designers often conservatively estimated helium’s lift at 60 lbs per 1,000 cubic feet and hydrogen’s lift at 68 lbs per 1,000 cubic feet.



Relative lifting ability of 100% Hydrogen vs. Helium

60° F, Barometric Pressure 29.92″ Hg



Weight of Lifting Gas

(per 1,000 cu. ft.)   Weight of Air

(per 1,000 cu. ft.)   Net Lift

(per 1,000 cu. ft.)

Hydrogen   5.31 lbs   76.36 lbs   71.05 lbs

Helium   10.54 lbs   76.36 lbs   65.82 lbs

 



The Effect of Helium on Airship Range and Payload



In actual use, because of physical realities and operational considerations, the use of helium can reduce an airship’s payload lift by almost half.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


Ernest Hancock

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


Ernest Hancock

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LKgtdNFi-g



Building light



Carbon Nanotube structure and graphene coating/hydrogen containment
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


cameron

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I was reading the same page a few days ago!



Found the same 68lbs/1000cu.ft. That means 1300 tons for the 39 million cu.ft. volume. Did you read the comments about recompressing helium instead of venting it? http://www.airships.net/helium-hydrogen-airships/#comment-589500



I will email Donna today.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


Ernest Hancock

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Donna is out all day with family and real estate stuff. Please include my email in the communication Publisher@FreedomsPhoenix.com.



Maybe we can do a Podcast sometime later today or this evening.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


Ernest Hancock

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cameron

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[attachment=0]p14.jpg[/attachment]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


Ernest Hancock

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I'll include some private posts data we have been discussing while checking our math etc since there is some useful links, measurement and concepts.



The 'Social Subsystems' are of little interest to me right now. The Precariat will be the private property of Captain Marque and he can do, whatever he wants with it. Build it and they will come applies to additional ALT-Ships with their own 'Pirate Code'.



It's the tech that allows for the ship that is disruptive. What someone does with their Liberty and Property is of little interest to me as long as they leave me, my friends, family and customers alone.



So, I wish to focus on the tech.



Subsystems to me are systems that influence things like, Buoyancy, thrust, communications, navigation, power, life support, security & defense, entertainment, food, water, maintenance etc.



Other systems like Gravity, tractor beams, Warp/Quantum drives (CrossBoneDrive - we already have a back story and graphic ideas :) can be incorporated in the design, but not at the risk of usable tech being detailed. Anyone of you that have spent some time on the net looking for advances in these areas and Airships in general see that we are farther than I think most of us realize.



Scan the Tech listed on the "BuildTheShip" category and you'll see what I mean http://pirateswithoutborders.com/buildtheship.



The other categories are just as full of ideas to place in the ship for most if not all of the other systems.

http://pirateswithoutborders.com/buildtheship

http://pirateswithoutborders.com/robots

http://pirateswithoutborders.com/education

http://pirateswithoutborders.com/transportation

http://pirateswithoutborders.com/shelter

http://pirateswithoutborders.com/food

http://pirateswithoutborders.com/healthcare

http://pirateswithoutborders.com/energy

http://pirateswithoutborders.com/communication



We've been years in accumulating announcements and progress reports on just the materials and tech needed to build the ship. This "demonstration" of the tech in the plans for the ship will be much more about people thinking more 3 dimensionally (Freedom is only 100km away... The concept of UP!) The Precariat is not only more possible each day, along with the liberty enhancing tech, it inevitable http://pirateswithoutborders.com/inform ... -build-the



Some resources and discussion about ship design...





Ernest Hancock wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:06 am

I have a request. We need to know the air displacement of the shell. This volume will determine how much it will lift. We'll need to measure the helium/hydrogen air bag volume needed to lift the craft without thrust if possible. The airfoil still needs to be maintained so that capacity is increased with forward thrust/lift.



Hi Ernie. I'm still listening to yesterday's archive. I'm glad you like it.



For cubic volume, I used the main "body" (without the movable wings, engines, "skull", or the tail).



p13.jpg

p13.jpg (9.06 KiB) Viewed 25 times



At its current size, it calculates to 39,309,656 cu.ft. If you chop off the wings (fuselage only), it drops to 23,256,222 cu.ft.



Do airfoil's work at that scale? The wings are over 600' long. I'm not an engineer, but imagine you'd need extreme air flow to get lift from something that large.



I'm sure I'll be too nervous to be useful on the show. I'm very quiet (100% introvert). I'm the complete opposite of you on your show. But if you like, we can try an aftershow, or something where I don't have to worry about sounding horrible.



Thanks.

Top



Postby Ernest Hancock » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:32 pm

https://www.google.com/search?q=lockhee ... 20&bih=987



If it moves it'll provide lift.



Thanks for the calc.



Aftershow, or just a podcast on Monday or even before with the guys while they are here.



The rear of the ship has rocket engines (hard to see in the schematic.



After 10 uses the SpaceX rockets (Merlin and the Raptor engines) go on the used market :)





Postby Ernest Hancock » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:48 pm

Donna Hancock, Producer <producer@DeclareYourIndependenceWithErnestHancock.com>



Please email Donna with your contact info so we can get you on. It'll be fun.





Postby Ernest Hancock » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:54 pm

Question

What is the weight of 1 cubic foot of air?

Asked by: Jonathan



Answer

FINAL ANSWER: 1 cubic foot of air at standard temperature and pressure assuming average composition weighs approximately 0.0807 lbs.



Postby Ernest Hancock » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:26 pm

Helium is less dense than air. Helium has 0.0114 pounds per cubic foot



Hydrogen lifts 68 lbs per 1,000 cubic feet [1], thus ~14.71 cu. ft. per lb



The weight of standard air is 1.2256 Kg/ Cubic Meter.

The weight of hydrogen is 0.0857 Kg/ Cubic Meter. = https://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-vol ... to-m3.html =

Conversion base : 1 ft3 = 0.028316846592 m3 Conversion base : 1 m3 = 35.314666721489 ft3



.0857x.028316846592=0.002426754

Sooo I guess

Hydrogen is 0.002426754 per cubic foot (I'd check this. that's a lot lighter than Helium.



Hydrogen would be an interesting choice since the solar panels can crack water into Hydrogen that can be stored for rocket fuel, along with the Oxygen, and for the bags.



Maybe not "with" the oxygen :)



If you do some of this calculations with as much space as you can use for bags then we'll know what thrust/lift we need and how much weight in material we will get to use



Such as:

23,256,222 cu.ft of the trimmed down ship may need 2/3rds of the space for cargo and people space etc.

So say 8,000,000 Cu.ft. that's

645600 lbs. of air that will be replaced with

19414 lbs of Hydrogen or

91200 lbs of Helium



So that means that we get to use 626186 lbs of structure to make the craft float without any lift or thrust..... interesting.



This is "Napkin Math" and I'd check it. But it gives you an idea. It also explains why you need to have as much air displacement as possible and still keep a lifting shape. But coolness is a factor as well. I like your work.



When you get further along and are able to place where the bags will go then we can start working on the gas vs. open spaces and what thrust we need for Vertical takeoff. Then the aerodynamics of the wing for its lift at what seeds... blah blah blah.



Your work on the displacement just got us a lot further along. Thank you!



After you have time to play with this then we can do some math.



If you ever check these numbers and are comfortable putting together some illustrations with these facts, let me know and we'll put something together for the forum OR you can just start posting these calcs up now and get more people helping with such stuff.



Peace,

Ernie





Postby Ernest Hancock » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:37 pm

This suggests that the calcs I did comparing Helium to Hydrogen were wrong, I hope you get the idea.



The Relative Lifting Ability of Hydrogen and Helium



Although helium weighs twice as much hydrogen, because each gas is so much lighter than air helium provides about 93% of hydrogen’s lift at full purity. In practical operation it is impossible to achieve or maintain 100% purity of either gas, reducing helium’s lifting ability to about 88% of the lift of hydrogen.



The actual lifting ability of each gas varies with temperature, pressure, and humidity, and to take account of varying atmospheric conditions and gas impurities airship designers often conservatively estimated helium’s lift at 60 lbs per 1,000 cubic feet and hydrogen’s lift at 68 lbs per 1,000 cubic feet.



Relative lifting ability of 100% Hydrogen vs. Helium

60° F, Barometric Pressure 29.92″ Hg



Weight of Lifting Gas

(per 1,000 cu. ft.) Weight of Air

(per 1,000 cu. ft.) Net Lift

(per 1,000 cu. ft.)

Hydrogen 5.31 lbs 76.36 lbs 71.05 lbs

Helium 10.54 lbs 76.36 lbs 65.82 lbs





The Effect of Helium on Airship Range and Payload



In actual use, because of physical realities and operational considerations, the use of helium can reduce an airship’s payload lift by almost half.



Postby Ernest Hancock » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:38 pm

http://www.airships.net/helium-hydrogen-airships/



Lot of comparisons here.



Postby Ernest Hancock » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:00 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LKgtdNFi-g



Building light



Carbon Nanotube structure and graphene coating/hydrogen containment
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


highwaytoserfdom

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agreed not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated make this short and sweet as took all the fun out of it.  



Been working with blender in a limited way only on the  video editing portion of  the thing..   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot5SS-EsnXY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgPMyvZMBY0    



been listening  and like Corbett  don't get the  nuances of the messages .....   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv55IWDk9fU&list=PLCjTDgC6x2ms4kbi1BenE1gPNpTFusobC



But you have the blender pieces to start something ...     Now  all the new intel and AMD chips are posting Blender specs...   Now it sounds to me like your  thinking this is a  Cody 3d  software thing.. Much more powerful than that..    What you have is Pixar in a box....    Big ideas....  need to story board.       20,000 leagues under the sea thought as opposed to an applied math problem...      



There is some interesting  youtube  classes on blender  and  you might  think about a github to share off pieces.........   Tarantino stole reservoir dogs and my thought on Blender was Doctor Seuss  Butter battle book ... or sure you know the some books that could be  extended to this ..   Not the software  for 3d printing....    my youngest is Making and characterizing PC-board based microwave circuits  for picking up photons on Quantum computer...   temperature constraints and squirrely stuff...  so blender visualizations..       Yup gave him same lecture you gave your kids about airplanes fighter jets or jest and whole deal....      Get in touch  with me and can yack it up...    It is the message I think...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


Ernest Hancock

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Please call me when you have time to talk about your Blender skills or how to open up the project to others.



Peace,

Ernie

602  ' ' ' 7 ' '1'''7                  ;;;5 ''9..,.00
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


cameron

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Raised the front fans to be level with the rear fans.

Changed the windows to match the structural floors (in the subsystems thread).

Created the pink 1,000 cu.ft. "balloons" and changed the body to a carbon fiber mesh. Maintained metal for the leading edge of the wing, the (future) flaps, and the enclosed living space.




[attachment=1]p19.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=2]p18.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]p20.jpg[/attachment]

Still working on the detachable cargo module, merlin engines, flaps, ion drive, hover craft, & flat solar panels before making the website graphics. I also have ideas to redesign the archway/lift platform to make space more usable without impacting the lift envelope.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


Ernest Hancock

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Nice adaptation of the Mesh to contain an "envelope" for the Lifting Gas.



This is just an option and there are many ways we may contain the Lifting Gas (Sealed Shell, Envelopes inside Shell, variations on the theme you've detailed etc)



This is a nice way to greatly reduce weight though.



Great work
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


Ernest Hancock

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Rotation of the outside Ducted Fans has too much drag with the remnant of the wigs attached to the Fan Housing.



Making them more Ball shaped will allow them to rotate inside the wing tips more with a mount much like the ones you've used on the head area. This is something to worry about later as you continue to develop.



I saw the floor plans on the Subsystems page. NICE!



Soon I'll spend some time on the engineering of the infrastructure and try to get some material weights etc.



Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »


cameron

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Will work on removing the drag causing surfaces. Had difficulty originally figuring out how the engines attach. The wing can tilt 18 degrees. So the engine has to counter tilt the same angle to maintain level. Figured an X-axis "hinge" (front to back) would cover this.
[attachment=1]p21.jpg[/attachment]
Then the whole thing can rotate up to 360 degrees on the Y axis (left to right).
[attachment=0]p22.gif[/attachment]
Having a hard time imagining how this connection would mechanically work and if the torque generated by the engine would damage this connection. Some kind of universal joint?



Will take another stab at it, but it will likely change if/when someone can come up with the best mechanical & structural joint.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »